31/10/2026

Lorry driver Ian Payne and writer Horatio Clare disagree about nearly everything.

They disagree about politics, about small boats and migration into the UK; about the necessity for lockdown and vaccinations during Covid; the BBC; and - especially - about the European Union and the Brexit vote in 2016. Ian voted leave whereas Horatio, who believes in fewer borders, voted remain.

And yet they’re firm friends. They first met in 2022 when Horatio joined Ian on an aid convoy to Ukraine and, despite their many differences, they found common ground on the things that matter most - friendship, family, love, life and travel. 

In this Archive on 4, Horatio boards Ian’s truck, the Duchess of Dorset, to deliver a consignment from the UK to the Netherlands. As they journey into Europe, they explore the issues which divide them – and unite them. Ian may oppose the European Union but, like Horatio, he loves Europe. The two of them discuss how they’ve arrived at their opposing positions and why, in the turbulent decade since the Brexit vote, society has become ever more polarised.

Horatio asks whether we’ve lost the art of agreeing to disagree. The idea of two people holding very different views but still managing a reasonable, civil conversation seems increasingly alien in an age when, egged on by social media, we’re yelling at each other across a widening divide. Outrage and insult are increasingly elbowing out respect and openness. So, what happened? How did we start taking reasoned argument as a personal attack?

As they journey across national borders, first from the UK to the EU and then across frictionless, almost invisible frontiers within Europe, Horatio considers why, ten years on from the Brexit vote, we’re increasingly divided from each other by borders of politics, identity and values. In his conversations with Ian, and by drawing on the archive, he asks whether we can somehow cross those borders, despite our differences.

Presenter: Horatio Clare
Producer: Jeremy Grange
Executive Producer: Steven Rajam
An Overcoat Media production for BBC Radio 4